Good Teams, Bad Outcomes with Martina Ziegenfuss and Jim Elvidge

In this episode of drunkenpm radio, Martina Ziegenfuss and Jim Elvidge of Clerv.io join me for a conversation about a frustrating but common pattern in organizations: smart, capable teams still end up delivering slow, messy, or misaligned results. The conversation looks at how team performance is shaped by the surrounding system, not just the people on the team. They also unpack how AI can speed up delivery in some places while exposing bottlenecks, governance gaps, and operating model problems somewhere else.In this episode, Dave, Martina, and Jim explore what makes a team “good,” why good teams can still produce bad outcomes, and how leadership choices often create the very friction teams are blamed for. They also discuss Clerv.io’s diagnostics and playbooks, designed to help organizations see systemic problems more clearly and work through them.

drunkenpmradio · Good Teams, Bad Outcomes with Martina Ziegenfuss and Jim Elvidge

Key Topics

What defines a good team

Systemic challenges in organizations

Impact of AI on team performance

Creating a culture of empowerment

Diagnosing organizational health with diagnostics

Experimenting with team structures

The role of leadership and management

Overcoming systemic resistance to change

Tools for assessing organizational health

The future of team design and AI

Chapters

00:00 — Why good teams can still produce bad outcomes

04:19 — Why Clerv.io started and what its playbooks are for

06:49 — Good teams, bad outcomes, and the impact of the system

11:37 — How team design depends on the broader system and architecture

14:22 — How organizational history, silos, and fear create friction

19:36 — The cross-functional team experiment and what it changed

27:05 — What AI can and can’t replace in team roles

33:06 — Theory of constraints: why faster tools don’t fix the bottleneck

35:43 — AI exposing governance and approval delays

47:03 — How to contact Martina and Jim and follow Clerv.io

Links from the Podcast

Clervio: https://clerv.io/

2026 PMI WDC Conference: www.pmiwdc.org/conference-2026-pmi-wdc
PMI SWVA 2026 Fall Symposium: pmi-swva.org/2026-symposium
Digital PM Summit: thebureau.community/2026-digital-pm-summit

Connect with Martina Ziegenfuss
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinaz/

Connect with Jim Elvidge

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimelvidge/

Connect with Dave Prior
drunkenPM Radio: soundcloud.com/drunkenpmradio
LInkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mrsungo/

Making the Case for Middle Management with Dennis Stevens

Dennis Stevens joins drunkenpm for a deep dive into the challenges faced by middle management in organizational change. Dennis argues that Agile and transformation efforts often fail because they treat middle managers as a roadblock, when in fact, these managers are simply victims of a badly designed system. The core idea is that companies shouldn't try to eliminate these roles but must instead design specific organizational "containers" and routines that force middle managers to leverage human nature (like self-interest and competition) to drive innovation. The goal is to shift strategy from a static plan to a dynamic process that lives in the interactions between people, ensuring all the work being done is strategically aligned, measurable, and ultimately successful.

You can find the podcast here: https://tinyurl.com/4tp8hcct

Links From The Intro

Productivity Survival with Mark Kilby and Dave Prior 

• https://www.tickettailor.com/events/markkilby/1905697

No One is Coming to Save You

• Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/yhdk785j
• Leanpub: https://leanpub.com/surfthechaos

From Theater to Flow: A Conversation with Ross Beurmann

Join Dave Prior as he sits down with Ross Beurmann, author of "From Theater to Flow: Rebuilding the System Behind Agility." In this episode, they delve into the challenges of agile transformations, the concept of "Agile Theater," and the importance of focusing on the middle management to drive meaningful change. Ross shares insights from his book and discusses the need for organizations to rethink their approach to agility.

Key Topics:

• The pitfalls of "Agile Theater" and how to avoid them 
• The role of middle management in successful transformations 
• Ross's unique approach to integrating governance and agility 
• Real-world examples and lessons learned from Ross's consulting experience

You can find the podcast here.

Shifting from Product to People: A New Agile Perspective with Pete Oliver-Krueger and Michael Dougherty

Shift: From Product To People: A Novel About Product Development, and Shifting to People To Achieve a Holistic Agile Transformation is a new book written by Michael Dougherty and Pete Oliver-Krueger that focuses on shifting the Agile mindset away from a product-centric approach and towards a more a people-centric one. This interview centers around the need for collaboration, the impact of AI on Agile practices, and the significance of creating a humane work environment. The authors also highlight the role of mentorship in personal growth and the future of work in an AI-driven landscape. They also share some of the challenges they faced during the four and a half years of writing the book, the narrative style that allows for multiple perspectives, and the importance of real-life experiences in connecting with readers. 

You can find the interview here

Is Your Team Operating At Its' Full Potential? w/ Brett Harned and Greg Storey from Same Team Partners

In this conversation, Dave Prior, Brett Harned, and Greg Storey discuss the importance of creating a humane workspace through effective communication and collaboration. They share their backgrounds, the founding of Same Team Partners, and the significance of addressing communication issues within teams. The discussion highlights the need for leaders to be trained in facilitating meaningful conversations and the role of Team Angle in diagnosing and improving team dynamics. The conversation emphasizes the importance of empathy, cultural understanding, and creating a safe environment for teams to thrive. In this conversation, the speakers discuss the importance of understanding and communicating company values, the necessity of documentation and effective communication within teams, and the role of visualization in work processes. They emphasize creating safe spaces for team discussions, empowering teams through inclusivity, and the need for transformation at the team level rather than just implementing new processes. The conversation highlights the challenges leaders face in fostering a healthy team culture and the significance of ongoing dialogue and collaboration to improve team dynamics.

Video: https://tinyurl.com/3fpuzccc

Audio: https://on.soundcloud.com/1Ws8j1m5acwExqan8

The Edge Collection with Si Alhir

In this episode of drunkenPM Radio, Si Alhir is back to discuss the concepts of agility, resilience, and anti-fragility and how they relate to navigating stress and achieving growth. He emphasizes the importance of embracing stress and using it as a tool for adaptation and evolution. Si also highlights the need for balance between order and disorder, and the dangers of too much of either. The conversation touches on examples such as vaccinations, exercise, and the impact of COVID-19 on individuals and organizations. Si Alhir discusses how ecosystem thinking and the concept of the edge play a role in increasing agility, resilience, and antifragility in organizations. He shares real-life examples of how organizations have leveraged these concepts to overcome challenges and achieve success. Si also introduces the Edge Collection, a set of instruments that help assess and cultivate agility, resilience, and antifragility at the individual, team, enterprise, and ecosystem levels.

You can find the podcast here.

The Art of War with Si Alhir

Si Alhir joins me to discuss Sun Tzu's The Art of War, its application in transformation work, and the naturalness and unity found within its wisdom. We explore the concept of taking whole, the relationship with the environment, and the role of the Sage Commander. Si shares personal experiences and insights, emphasizing the transformative power of the Art of War. The conversation delves into the concept of enlightened leadership and the application of the principles from 'The Art of War' in organizational transformation. It explores the distinction between an enlightened ruler and a wise general, the importance of psychological safety, and the shift from a vicious ego-based reality control cycle to a virtuous eco-based reality navigation cycle. The conversation concludes with a powerful story of using the ordinary and the extraordinary to transform toxic organizational dynamics.

You can find the podcast here: https://tinyurl.com/57ku8kdv

Develop Better Results with Gil Broza

 

Gil Broza joins me for a podcast about his new book, “Deliver Better Results: How to Unlock Your Organization's Potential." During the interview, Gil and I discuss how he designed the book to quickly provide actionable practices that organizations can utilize to improve their value delivery system. Our conversation includes details on how to understand the fitness for purpose of your system of delivery, and how to employ his ten strategies to improve your level of maturity. 

You can listen to the podcast here: https://on.soundcloud.com/j7ZtY

Is this the Darkest Agile Timeline?

George Schlitz joins the podcast to discuss the current state of Agile, whether or not this is the darkest timeline, how we got here, how to make it better, and where to look for hope.

If you aren’t familiar with The Darkest Timeline, in the show Community there was a storyline where a random occurrence created multiple parallel timelines. A roll of the dice created six possible ways things could have gone… basically a six-sided multiverse. 

And one of the parallels created is THE DARKEST TIMELINE. It’s basically the Lemony Snicket timeline of worst case scenario where Captain Kirk is sporting his Van Dyke beard, Thomas Wayne is Batman instead of Bruce Wayne, it rains all the time, you miss every bus, never made that play in the big game, never asked that person to the prom, never got that promotion… you get the idea.

You can listen to the podcast here: http://tinyurl.com/ndkdkrxp

Is Agile Delivering The Business Outcomes You Are Looking For? with Jessica Wolfe

Jessica Wolfe is back to discuss what kind of things organizations need to pay attention to and track in order to understand if their implementation of agile is actually providing them with the business results they are looking for. All too often organizations fall into the trap of simply thinking that doing the thing (agile) creates the desired change. This is not always the case. 

During the interview, Jessica shows how Lean Agile Intelligence can be used to figure out what you need to track and how it can show you that the problem you actually have may not be the problem you thought you had. 

You can find a video version of the podcast here.

You can find an audio version of the podcast here.

Using Personal Kanban to Start Agile Transformation with Michael Grill

Michael Grill is a Product Owner and Head of Process and Methods in the Agile Practice at Knorr-Bremse, and they have taken steps to address this challenge of helping individuals adopt an agile mindset and practices in managing their day-to-day work by adopting Personal Kanban before they put them together on agile teams. In this interview, Michael joins me to share how Knorr-Bremse came to make this choice and how it is deeply impacting their agile practice. First, you begin working with Personal Kanban, then you and your team members begin working together using PK, and then you adopt practices from Scrum, Kanban, or other forms of agile, to get the work done. 

You can find the podcast and links to learn more here.

Cultivating a Soulful Transformation Community w Jardena London

Jardena London joins the podcast to talk about the launch of the Transformational Leader Community that she has created to help foster a more soulful approach to organizational change. If you'd like to read more about Jardena's approach, you can also check out her book Cultivating Transformations: A Leader’s Guide to Connecting the Soulful and the Practical 

The interview is available in video here: https://youtu.be/zOa4IZT_V2c

The interview is available in audio here: https://on.soundcloud.com/VwTsU

The Future of Project Management with Howard Sublett

This week I am joined by Howard Sublett. Howard is the former CEO of the Scrum Alliance, a good friend,  and someone who has been working in the Agile space for a very long time. During our interview, we talk about where Agile and project management are headed and exactly how dystopian is the future going to be?

You can check out the podcast here.

Value Stream Management with Derek Huether

Derek Huether is back for this episode and we’re focusing on Value Stream Management. Value Stream Mapping is about understanding all the steps from the inception of an idea to putting something valuable in a customer's hands, and using that information to optimize the flow of value through the system. But, within a business, you will have many value streams and we need to understand how best to coordinate those streams to optimize the overall value generated by the company across multiple value streams. If your brain is wired for traditional project management, you could think of this as creating a system that optimizes a portfolio management level view of all the value streams in the org.

• Video version: https://youtu.be/nxGvpnWgoIM
• Audio version: https://on.soundcloud.com/dAVHR

Agile Practices in the Org and Home with Lee Lis

Despite the fact that Agile practices have been applied to just about every type of work you can imagine, there is still a pervasive assumption that it is just for software. In the CSM and CSPO classes I teach, people often ask for “real life examples” of how people not working directly on software teams are able to use agile and to what end.

In this episode Lee Lis, Chief of Staff at OnPay, joins me to discuss ways she has applied agile practices in her role at OnPay to create an environment that fosters an agile mindset and self-managing teams that are empowered to take ownership of their work and how she has applied in at home parenting small humans who may not fully grok the idea of self-managing yet.

You can find the podcast here.

An Abundance of Opportunity with Chris Li

A student wrote in asking about how to deal with: 

• PO can’t or won’t prioritize the backlog

• Team members are always taking on special side projects in the company

• The team is 35 people spread across several time zones - both on and off-shore

• Everyone is working on new products and also supporting up to 30 applications

• Everyone is expected to be at 100% utilization at all times.

• The Sprints are 4-5 weeks long (the size varies depending on the work to be done)

• One hour is allocated for Sprint Planning

This is a lot to address here so I asked my good friend (and fellow CST) Chris Li to join me to talk through these challenges.

 The video version of the interview can be found here: https://bit.ly/3SgK2jL

An audio version of the podcast can be found here: https://bit.ly/3xwfWkg

Developing an Internal Agile Certification Program with Dan Eberle

Dan Eberle is the Agile Coach at the New York Times where he's been hard at work developing an Agile Certification program. During this episode of the podcast, Dan explains why he developed the program, the different areas it focuses on, and how employees of the New York Times will evolve through the different levels of certification. 

You can find the interview here.

To sign up for Dave's in-person CSM/CSPO classes in Atlanta:

• CSM (April 5-6, 2022) https://bit.ly/APR5CSMATL
• CSPO (April 7-8, 2022) https://bit.ly/APR7CSPOATL

* Use the discount code DPM10 to get a 10% discount off the list price

The Journey to Enterprise Agility w/ Daryl Kulak and Hong Li

 

In their book The Journey to Enterprise Agility - Systems Thinking and Organizational Legacy, Daryl Kulak and Hong Li share stories about their experiences working with organizations that are on the journey towards agility and explain how this shift in approach works, why so many organizations fail at adopting agile, and how the changes they recommend impacts the way we think and work with people at all levels of the enterprise.

You can find the interview here.

Using Data to Drive Enterprise Adoption of Agile w/ Mike McCalla

Mike McCalla, President, and Founder of Lean Agile Intelligence joins me in this episode to discuss why taking an Object-Oriented Data-Driven approach to change is critical to your enterprise-wide agile transformation.

You can find the podcast here.

If you are curious about how Lean Agile Intelligence can help you and your organization continually assess how you are progressing in your transformation journey and what next steps are likely to help the most. 

https://leanagileintelligence.com

Common Sense Scrum with Eric Tucker

Sustained Agility’s Eric Tucker, CST, joins me to talk about missteps people and organizations make while transitioning to Scrum that could be easily avoided if they would just use common sense. Eric has put together a talk highlighting some of these mistakes and during the interview, he and I explore why they occur in the first place, and how two avoid them.

You can find the interview here.